I can't tell you how many times over the years I've recounted the biblical statement attributed to Jesus admonishing to treat a person as a tax collector and then pointing out that Jesus did not shun tax collectors and we know this because the bible records Jesus having dinner with tax collectors. The average JWs stands there while the idea flies straight over their head. JWs who know me just roll their eyes and change the subject, precisely because they get it.
Marvin Shilmer
JoinedPosts by Marvin Shilmer
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Treat Disfellowshipped as "Men of the Nations and Tax Collectors"
by BluesBrother inwe are more than familiar with the wts rules that say the d/f'd ones , even close relatives outside the home are to be shunned completely "not even saying a greeting" except in very exceptional circumstances.
there is ,however, a line of thought that reasons on jesus' words at matthew 18 ,regarding personal disputes,and their application of it to being disfellowshipped.. matthew 18:15-17.
15 moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone.
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Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)
by Simon incontinuing a topic that is dear to my heart because of my experience as both a shunner and a shunnee .... some people seem to get very agitated when i talk about the responsibility people have to make the right choices and that despite all the wrongs within the wts, people themselves have a role to play and some personal responsibility for the experience.. notice i said "some" responsibility, not "complete" - this doesn't absolve the wts for the things they do wrong in any way shape or form.
so please don't get argumentative about possible meanings and absolutes - of course the wts has a significant role to play but we need to decide what we're trying to achieve here and why the personal choice is so important.. i'm also not talking about actual crimes that the wts should answer for.
if they cover up child abuse for instance, they absolutely should be reported immediately.
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Marvin Shilmer
But it is about making them aware of the choice and that they are making it. Instead of shirking the responsibility at least if we make them think about and admit the reasons there may be a chance the realize that they are simply following men, don't know why and are making a bad choice.
I've had some success speaking with JWs over the years on this very basis.
In one instance a JW mentioned to me how hard it was to shun a particular individual. I responded saying" I could understand why they felt that way." This prompted a question to me asking "Why do you say that?" I responded by pointing out the biblical model does in each case of a disfellowshipping (borrowing WTS nomenclature) have elders sharing what act the individual is being shunned for, and when we don't have this information it's much harder to find closure to the event because we are left wondering what happened, why and whether the individual really did something they should be shunned over.
That prompted a second question of "Don't you trust elders to decide these things." This brought a speedy response of "No. I don't. I've seen too much to be that naive. If I'm going to shun someone then I have know know what they did and why. Only then will I take on the responsibility of whatever harm might be caused by me shunning a person."
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Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)
by Simon incontinuing a topic that is dear to my heart because of my experience as both a shunner and a shunnee .... some people seem to get very agitated when i talk about the responsibility people have to make the right choices and that despite all the wrongs within the wts, people themselves have a role to play and some personal responsibility for the experience.. notice i said "some" responsibility, not "complete" - this doesn't absolve the wts for the things they do wrong in any way shape or form.
so please don't get argumentative about possible meanings and absolutes - of course the wts has a significant role to play but we need to decide what we're trying to achieve here and why the personal choice is so important.. i'm also not talking about actual crimes that the wts should answer for.
if they cover up child abuse for instance, they absolutely should be reported immediately.
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Marvin Shilmer
I think the danger with that is that it may subtly promote the idea that it's OK if there is a reason they know about it and it moves the discussion into what are and what aren't valid reasons.
Insofar as I'm concerned it is morally acceptable for one person to shun another if the individual knows precisely the conduct at issue and has made a personal choice to shun based on that conduct. In that case individual accountability for shunning is put under an even more intense lens of scrutiny. They can't, for instance, get away with saying "Well So-n-So did something horrible otherwise they'd not be disfellowshipped." Instead the individual has to be comfortable saying, for example, "I'm shunning So-n-So because So-n-So was asking questions that my religion's leaders could not answer for."
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Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)
by Simon incontinuing a topic that is dear to my heart because of my experience as both a shunner and a shunnee .... some people seem to get very agitated when i talk about the responsibility people have to make the right choices and that despite all the wrongs within the wts, people themselves have a role to play and some personal responsibility for the experience.. notice i said "some" responsibility, not "complete" - this doesn't absolve the wts for the things they do wrong in any way shape or form.
so please don't get argumentative about possible meanings and absolutes - of course the wts has a significant role to play but we need to decide what we're trying to achieve here and why the personal choice is so important.. i'm also not talking about actual crimes that the wts should answer for.
if they cover up child abuse for instance, they absolutely should be reported immediately.
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Marvin Shilmer
Simon,
It has been theorized that tension is essential to survival and growth of a new religious movement. (Stark and Iannaccone, 1997 Journal Cont Rel) According to this theory the trick is having and asserting a relatively unique strictness that strikes a balance between to much and to little tension.
When I look at Watchtower's organized communal shunning policy I see a religious movement using tension as a method and means of growth. This presents as a dial that can be increased of decreased in multiple ways, but in each case in a way that projects overall growth.
Just to dial in what I think is a primary personal accountability problem for JWs, I think your statement "some JWs are unloving and unchristian because they choose to shun their loved ones" is better to read JWs are unloving and unchristian because they choose to shun their loved ones based without knowing precisely what the individual is supposedly guilty of doing. It is, after all, Watchtower policy for elders not to disclose details of a judicial case and loyal JWs are not supposed to communicate with a disfellowshipped individual about why they were disfellowshipped (which supposedly falls under the broad subject of "spiritual").
From a purely biblical perspective (something JWs are told is paramount!) the model is to inform the church membership what precisely the individual is guilty of, whether that be having a sexual relationship with their father's wife (see 1 Cor.) or apostasy (see 2 Tim.) Watchtower defies this biblical model suggesting it is hostage to contemporary legalities. Yet contemporary legalities do not seem to interfere with other Watchtower policies, such as the one known as Theocratic War Strategy. When Watchtower wants to assert a policy it does so whether it complies with black-letter law or not.
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Mobile Hotspot - JWFACTS.COM - Assembly & Conventions
by thedepressedsoul inhere is an idea i tested.
works at both assemblies and conventions.
i have noticed at the last convention and at my last assembly that when i opened up my wifi setting, tons of hotspots came up for people tethering their tablets to their smart phones.
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Marvin Shilmer
I wish I understood all this technical talk. Sadly, I'm lost when it comes to this stuff. I have an iphone5 and have no clue how to do the things folks are talking about here. But it would be fun to try. Maybe one day I'll learn about this stuff. -
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No longer wanting to attend meetings
by breezy inhello everyone.. first post here.
long time follower of this website, probably 4 years now.
i've known about ttatt since ive been 18, im now 22 going on 23 but still go to meetings because of parents.
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Marvin Shilmer
One approach is to express the toll participation is causing.
Tell them what it feels like to have learned the religious history you'd accepted is different from what you learned when looking up that very history as recorded by the religion itself. For example, recently a GB member said that JWs back in 1914 got it right about what occurred invisibly in the year 1914. Nothing could be further from the truth. What JWs (Bible Students) believed and published about 1914 during and before 1914 is nothing like what is taught today about 1914. Then there are all the unanswered questions about how its scriptural to shun JWs for accepting transfusion of one product rendered from blood but not proper to shun a JW for accepting another product rendered from blood. Then there's the religion's history of failing to have an adequate policy to protect children from pedophiles. Then there's the religion's history of lambasting other religious movements when they make false predictions, yet fail to be as candid about their own false predictions.
Unless a person wants to live a life intellectually hiding under rocks there is no way to intelligently overlook these things. Oh, and don't forget to mention what it feels like to be made to feel some questions are best left unasked, even when answers are essential to an important biblical position. It's unhealthy to live like this, that is unless a person gets comfort from being an intellectual cave-dweller.
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things you dont hear: Protest against Jehovah's Witnesses event in central Israel turns violent
by goingthruthemotions init funny how the cult will imbelish on somethings and others they just sweep under the rug and you never hear anything about it again.
i was just doing some searches on the internet and stumbled on this.
i had heard that the dub's were trying to get people to go to israel and then you never hear anything after that.
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Marvin Shilmer
Religion business is messy stuff. -
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after 2 years, getting the courage to read COC. but is is still really relevant?
by nowwhat? inif so why?
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Marvin Shilmer
Because the Watchtower organization (JW dot whatever!) was and remains a top-down run organization with little if any transparency. COC provided a documented view into the culture that made the organization.
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You have a $100,000,000 budget to do a global campaign against the WTBS worldwide. How would you spend it?
by JWchange inwhat if by inheritance, winning the lottery or any other way, you suddenly got your hands on $150m after tax.
you maybe would spend a third of this giving your extended family financial security for life.
you maybe would buy a boat and a few investment properties.
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Marvin Shilmer
i am of the opinion most GB members would not accept the financial incentive.
If you're looking for the surest and fastest way to influence Watchtower's future by spending 100 milliions bucks my opinion is to buy yourself a couple of GB members, if not more. That would do it.
You have a different opinion. So what?
They would rather die, as did their followers in Nazi Germany, Malawi etc.
The then GB members were all doing things that JWs of the era were dying for. Watchtower's top leadership does not act like they ask their followers to act.
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You have a $100,000,000 budget to do a global campaign against the WTBS worldwide. How would you spend it?
by JWchange inwhat if by inheritance, winning the lottery or any other way, you suddenly got your hands on $150m after tax.
you maybe would spend a third of this giving your extended family financial security for life.
you maybe would buy a boat and a few investment properties.
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Marvin Shilmer
The answer is easy: Offer each current member of the GB the sum of $10,000,000 to step aside as a GB member and write a memoir on their years as a GB member and that must be accompanied by documentation.
Watchtower would be toast as we know it today. Over. Done with.
Multiple GB members would jump on this cash train.